M-ORTIZ
Danny,
I appreciate your soapbox baseball purist response of, oh the DH is bad for baseball, they don't play defense so they can't be that valuable, yada yada yada!!! I have heard it all before, and the argument stunk then and it stinks now. A pitcher is a part time player, just like a DH and they have repeatedly won MVP awards, the voters have said its ok to be a part itme guy. A pitcher goes out once a week, once every 5 games, that's it, at least a DH has to be awake for every game.
If defense were seen as that important why did Brooks Robinson only win one MVP award? Or how about Jim Kaat, the best fielding pitcher of all time had a great year winning 25 games and having a 2.75 ERA (almost a whole run better than the rest of the league) in 1966, but know you gave it to Frank Robinson for winning the Triple Crown in his first season in the American League.
How about Roberto Clemente, arguably the greatest fielding outfielder ever. He won exactly 1 MVP award. He won that in 1966, maybe his worst defensive season ever. He committed 12 errors and only recorded 17 assists, his normal assist to error ratio was 1.9 that season it was 1.4 his fielding percentage was .965. Where was his MVP trophy in 1958 or 1961 or 1968 all when he had earth shattering defensive seasons and very productive offensive ones too?
Dann, the precedent has already been set by the baseball writers who vote on these awards. Jose Canseco has an MVP trophy in a year were he made 7 outfield errors and DH a few games here and there. But you gave him the award for his 40/40 season.
Even Yankee manager Joe Torre has an MVP trophy from perhaps his worst defensive year ever, 1971, where he committed 23 errors at third base. But he hit over .360 and drove in 137 RBI. Why not Bobby Bonds that year, after all he had more runs, SB, HR and similar numbers in doubles and slugging and he won a Gold Glove. But no, the award went to Torre he had those two unbelievable offensive numbers.
Just take a look at the history of the game Dann, that is all you need to do. This game IS about offense, it IS about steroids, it IS about wanting to see guys hit the long ball. As the saying goes, “Chicks dig the long ball.” I have never heard anyone say, “Chicks dig the 6-4-3.” And to say strategy wins and not just big guys mashing the ball all over the place, then what the heck were the Red Sox and the Cardinals last year? Even the Sox this year, by your own admission, are an horrific fielding team but they are the best team in the AL. Why you say, wll obviosuly not because of their leather, but the stick of David Ortiz.
If before the season I were to say I will list two groups of five teams, and you had to chose one group for the World Series winning team to come out of, and the loser has to spend 6 weeks camping with Turd and Whitey, tell me which group you would pick.
Angels, Astros, Mariners, Phillies, and Braves
OR
Sawx, Rangers, Yanks, Reds, and Cardinals.
You are a liar if you picked the top group, which are the 5 best fielding teams in the league, the bottom 5 are the top five run producing teams in the league.
A player who is as exceptional as David Ortiz should win the MVP. He is the best clutch hitter in the game as I stated yesterday. I went back and compiled some more data to back that up. In 33 one run games that the Sawx have played Ortiz is only batting .322 with 14 dingers and 27 RBI. While A-Rod is batting .260 with 9 dingers and 21 RBI in 36 one run games. A DH should, can, and will win the MVP. Defense just does not matter when it comes to this award. Ortiz is the MVP
I appreciate your soapbox baseball purist response of, oh the DH is bad for baseball, they don't play defense so they can't be that valuable, yada yada yada!!! I have heard it all before, and the argument stunk then and it stinks now. A pitcher is a part time player, just like a DH and they have repeatedly won MVP awards, the voters have said its ok to be a part itme guy. A pitcher goes out once a week, once every 5 games, that's it, at least a DH has to be awake for every game.
If defense were seen as that important why did Brooks Robinson only win one MVP award? Or how about Jim Kaat, the best fielding pitcher of all time had a great year winning 25 games and having a 2.75 ERA (almost a whole run better than the rest of the league) in 1966, but know you gave it to Frank Robinson for winning the Triple Crown in his first season in the American League.
How about Roberto Clemente, arguably the greatest fielding outfielder ever. He won exactly 1 MVP award. He won that in 1966, maybe his worst defensive season ever. He committed 12 errors and only recorded 17 assists, his normal assist to error ratio was 1.9 that season it was 1.4 his fielding percentage was .965. Where was his MVP trophy in 1958 or 1961 or 1968 all when he had earth shattering defensive seasons and very productive offensive ones too?
Dann, the precedent has already been set by the baseball writers who vote on these awards. Jose Canseco has an MVP trophy in a year were he made 7 outfield errors and DH a few games here and there. But you gave him the award for his 40/40 season.
Even Yankee manager Joe Torre has an MVP trophy from perhaps his worst defensive year ever, 1971, where he committed 23 errors at third base. But he hit over .360 and drove in 137 RBI. Why not Bobby Bonds that year, after all he had more runs, SB, HR and similar numbers in doubles and slugging and he won a Gold Glove. But no, the award went to Torre he had those two unbelievable offensive numbers.
Just take a look at the history of the game Dann, that is all you need to do. This game IS about offense, it IS about steroids, it IS about wanting to see guys hit the long ball. As the saying goes, “Chicks dig the long ball.” I have never heard anyone say, “Chicks dig the 6-4-3.” And to say strategy wins and not just big guys mashing the ball all over the place, then what the heck were the Red Sox and the Cardinals last year? Even the Sox this year, by your own admission, are an horrific fielding team but they are the best team in the AL. Why you say, wll obviosuly not because of their leather, but the stick of David Ortiz.
If before the season I were to say I will list two groups of five teams, and you had to chose one group for the World Series winning team to come out of, and the loser has to spend 6 weeks camping with Turd and Whitey, tell me which group you would pick.
Angels, Astros, Mariners, Phillies, and Braves
OR
Sawx, Rangers, Yanks, Reds, and Cardinals.
You are a liar if you picked the top group, which are the 5 best fielding teams in the league, the bottom 5 are the top five run producing teams in the league.
A player who is as exceptional as David Ortiz should win the MVP. He is the best clutch hitter in the game as I stated yesterday. I went back and compiled some more data to back that up. In 33 one run games that the Sawx have played Ortiz is only batting .322 with 14 dingers and 27 RBI. While A-Rod is batting .260 with 9 dingers and 21 RBI in 36 one run games. A DH should, can, and will win the MVP. Defense just does not matter when it comes to this award. Ortiz is the MVP
12 Comments:
Hey, what's wrong with spending 6 weeks camping with me? I can party like a rockstar!!!
I absolutely would pick the top group. Why wouldn't I? When have the heavy hitting Reds ever been competitive since moving to their band box? Same with the Rangers. The Yanks have been the biggest underachievers since they've attempted to go to the big bats. The big bats are fun to watch but how fun are they when you suck? I only considered the Cards, Sox and Yanks WS contenders out of list B, but all 5 of list A's teams were WS contenders from the get go. I'm a fan of gap/slap hitters, speed, solid defense and great pitching. What wins games? Offense?? You know the real saying..."Pitching, Defense and timely hitting win championships"...not homeruns! The saying, "Chicks dig the long ball" was fabricated during the height of the steroid 70 HR era. Who cares if chicks dig guys with big muscles, or any fans for that matter. Just because baseball fans are now more enthralled with watching Mark McGwire take batting practice then they are watching a 1-0 pitchers duel is meaningless. The facts are you win games on all around play and not just the big fly. I'm not saying Ortiz isn't worthy of some votes. But to me comparing him to the talent he's up against, I just don't see how he can be more valuable then the next guy.
And please don't start comparing David Ortiz to a stud #1 pitcher. A pitcher has more affect on the game in 1 start then a regular player does in 1 week. And they do play on both sides of the chalk...they actually hit in the NL, or in most cases and more importantly, sacrifice a runner over. You overlook things like that because to you they are meaningless, well because the ball only travels 6 feet and not 450 feet. I'll take a sac bunt to move a runner to 2nd or 3rd over a guy swinging for the fences every time.
Call it what you want. I'm a baseball purist. I know how to win games. Teams that express fundamentals will win more times then not regardless how many 40 HR guys the other team has.
You want to know why this sport is so corrupt and why so many legends are embarrassed by today's game? It's because of thoughts like this:
"This game IS about offense, it IS about steroids, it IS about wanting to see guys hit the long ball."
That's a crock of shit and you suck for writing it!
You want to know why Boston won last year?? Yes Ortiz was very clutch and played a huge part in their title (why not he's a professional hitter), but they won because they had GREAT PITCHING and TIMELY HITTING!!!! Something the Yanks had Cards didn't have.
Look, before you twist my words any further about defense and it's relation to the MVP award, let me clarify! Obviously a phenom defensive player should not win the award solely on defense. My point was that if you have several guys that have put up very similar offensive numbers, one of the deciding factors should be his defensive play (as in ARod's exceptional play at 3rd), or maybe their feats on the base paths, (as in Canseco's 40 SB) and since Ortiz does not do either one of these, then it makes the choice very simple....
I'll get off my soap box when you get off your structurally reinforced titanium one...
Dann,
First off all you have a few things wrong with your response. You are a total liar if before the season you said you would take the first group, that is just a plain lie. Even if the two other teams in the bottom group were Tampa & KC the bottom group still had the three favorites to win the World Series. Still to this day, the Cards, Yanks and Sox are most likely going to win the world series.
Secondly, don't tell me what I know or do not know, and like or do not like in baseball. Still the greatest game I have ever watched in baseball was game 7 of the '91 Series between Smoltz and Jack Morris, which was the single greatest exhibition of big game pitching, and the result of that game was 1-0 in 10 innings. So I do like pitching and defense and understand that is what helps win ball games. Also, I have been trying to argue for years that Derek Jeter is simply the best player of his generation because he can do all those little things you speak of, like move a runner over, slap a base hit the other way, steal a big base, go from first to third ona single, score from first when a ball goes into the gap, and change the game with single play on defense (ask the Oakland A's).
However, nobody will ever really see my argument because the general baseball fan and writer and historian alike link the game to homeruns and mythical figures that are Paul Bunyan-esque.
When did baseball achieve it's biggest boom in popularity, the era that made it the "National Pasttime?" It was a decade called the roaring 20's and it was single handedly put on that pedastal by one man and his prepencity to hit the big fly, the homerun!!! His proliferation at doing this forced others into becoming homerun hitters, and the boom of baseball began. Baseball during and immediately following World War I was all but dead, because it was about slap hitters and base stealers (Ty Cobb & Joe Jackson)and shutout pitchers like Cy Young, Grover Alexander, and Walter Johnson. But in the 20's and 30's who are the names you remember, the names that go down in baseball lore from those decades? Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, Mel Ott and Hank Greenberg. Not one of them was known for his pitching or defense or sacrafice bunting.
Then again in the 50's in the post war era, when baseball was again ina decline what saved it? Two gys who hit the tar out of the ball, Ted Williams and Mikey Mantle. And even though Williams was the consumate singles hitter, who did every kid want to be in the 50's? Mickey Charles Mantle, and why you ask, because he once hit the ball clear out of Griffith Stadium in Washington, and hit the top of the facade in Yankee Stadium.
Why after the single greatest decade and year (1968) of success that pitchers had since the pre-Ruthian era did MLB decide to raise the mound? Because people had stopped watching, they needed the game to be filled with offense once again.
Ask any baseball or sports historian, what saved baseball from going the way of hockey in the 90's? One singular, spectacular summer in 1998 were two roided up freaks hit balls farther and at a faster pace than anyone ever had. We all knew they were on steroids, but we did not care. Tell me what event you remember (and by you I mean the average baseball fan, because you will refute whatever I say for the sake of your own point), when Big Mac hit his 62nd homerun, or when Roger Clemens won his 300th game?
Dann, face it the game is, was, and always will be about the offense and more specifically the homerun. It's most famous moments are linked to it. In World Series history Bill Mazeroski and Joe Carter are remembered for their walk off Homerun's more so than Luis Gonzalez and Gene Larkin will ever be remembered for their walk off singles.
I am sorry to see that it makes you so upset as a purist, but the fact remains Hoemruns are the staple by which this game is remembered.
#1, I am not a liar. And just because you chose one thing, does not make it the end all be all of answers. Why would I care about lieing about that? To prove why I would not vote for Ortiz as MVP??? That makes no sense. The pitching is far better on those top teams, or at least was prior to the season, and I will always take pitching over hitting.... sorry that's just me!!
#2, If you love pitching and defense and appreciate the pitcher's duwl so much then you would give more credit to them rather then saying they do no more then play once every 5 games and are only 1 way players. That's crap and you know it it. Maybe you didn't mean it that way, who knows, who cares!
#3, You giving me the run down of the history of the game and preaching the sport to me like I was a retarded Philipino girl is not only insulting but has nothing to do with why I would not vote for Ortiz as AL MVP.... Where were you going with this, other then to prove, to others, that homeruns are a huge part of the sport? Yeah I know this. I don't dislike them or ignore them. I was making points as to how you cannot build winning teams and base MVP awards solely on the HR. MIx HR's in with high RBI, Avg, solid defense, and other intangibles and you start to get your MVP.
No need to give me a history of the game and a list of HOFers in order to somehow prove why Ortiz is your MVP.
I'm not sure why you just can't accept the fact that we have a difference of opinon. Just because I disagree with you does not make me wrong. Thanks for the history lesson...what do you know about cricket?
Correction!!!!!!
I just reread your 2 lists of teams. I thought you had the Marlins in there and not the Mariners. This is a big difference. My preseason WS series was Florida vs Anaheim. Which is why I immediately selected the first group. Switch Seattle for Florida and that's the group I chose. It still defeats your theory of taking the group B soley because of the Yanks, Sox, and Cards. I didn't even have the Yanks making the playoffs....
Doesn't really matter because I guess I'm a liar that knows nothing and you're the second coming of Peter Gammons!
Dann,
The only contentious point I have now is talking about switching the Mariners with the Marlins on that list, that would defeat the point of the list. But I digress.
I would never want to be the second cumming of Peter Gammons, he is from Boston and a lifelong Sawx fan, which is about as bad as being from Queens and being a lifelong Met fan. So I understand your vision is cloudy.
While my point is always right (especially on the site that bears my name), and yours is always wrong the one thing we can agree on is there is nothing quite like the smell of hoagies in the morning!!
Are you sure you read my bet correctly too, the loser has to go camping with Whitey and Turd for 6 whole weeks, I would rather have Pete remove my spleen with a pitching wedge.
Let us never speak of this disagreement again.
Well in the world of "Blah, blah, blah Brett Favre, blah, blah, blah Ty Cobb" then yes you are always right. How can your opinon be wrong in the world of you??
You forget that camping with Turd and Whitie is my third most favorite thing to do. Outside of slap boxing the weasle and wedding cartwheels. Hmmmm...I wonder if I can combine the 3....
Anyway, in 10 years we can then discuss how I was right about Reyes' legacy outshining Jeter's....hehehehehehehehehe. (That was laugh typing, my 4th favorite thing) LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LMFAO!
Loud Noises!!! Loud Noises!!!
That argument between Dann and Slipps was the single most boring and pointless thing I have ever read. I was like watching Joan Rivers and Starr Jones argue about who is the best dressed at the Emmy's. Now you two kiss and make -up like Starr and Joan do in my dreams. Willie
Slips, I could care less who you think should MVP. I do however take offense to the fact that you would rather have Pete remove your spleen with a pitching wedge then go camping with me. I think forcing Dann to watch you smother yourself in gravy while you wear nothing but your Teanck High 1955 high jumper shorts would be a much more appropriate punishment. Go Gamecocks!!!!
TF
Willie-
Please tell me I'm Star Jones in that dream!!!
since when did this become a blogger discussion for just York College grads?
Home runs suck, pitcher's duels rule, ARod should be the MVP because he's the only reason a team with little to no pitching is still around, that and the great Derek jeter (Kris, do me a favor and take his cock out of your mouth for a moment here, I'm talking).
Ortiz should finish a close second, but on a team full of stars, if you took ARod off the Yanks and replaced him with Aaron Boone, they would suck.
Granted, if you replaced Ortiz with Mike Piazza, the Sox wouldn't be much better and everyone would JUST SHUT UP about the MVP race.
Now, let's talk about late nights at Dunkin' Donuts, about cheese fries with gravy and trippin' on mushrooms, whip-its and weed at the brid santuary or wherever you white people went at night.
How about an in depth discussion how Brett Favre is getting no hate for forcing Javon Walker back into camp and on the team with a beat contract and now that his season is done, he won't get paid and it's all that Kiln redneck's fault that the black man didn't get paid.
How about something on how pathetic the Viking look without Randy Moss or why XM radio is worth the cost just to hear Tony K every day....
You know what, now that I think about it, go back to talking about events that I will never attend or remember. The site works better that way...
Pamela Bob OUT
York College blows. Only fags go there! I'm with the darky, this blog blows!
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